I know it is to hard for the eggs to develop, but, what is 180 ppm ?

Hard?
Medium Hard?

Thanks

I would use a conductivity meter.... how did u measure this... is this alkalinity???

i used a conductivity meter in my operation....

when i got under 100 things got great with my eggs... over 200 i lost a lot of fry...

as far as 180 ppm i would assume this is the alkalinity in your water... so how hard the water is ???


i am not a chemist but i always went with conductivity in my hatchery.....  but i had really hard water in riverside ca... like 9.0   so i was always mixing ro to water...


not sure this helped you chuck     lol

give me some more detail...

chad

I used a TDS meter. So that is I think Parts Per Million of dissolved solids.

If I have a pair that is spawning. I then use R/O water and take it below 50 or 60 PPM. And, that works.

People ask me how hard my water is. If I tell them PPM, I get a blank stare. I am not talking t DAAH members most of time. Even Though, I try to get them here. Many prefer the info from the books written in the late 70s. Books I read 25 years ago. So I want to say it is a little hard, vary Hard erc.

Plus, I would like to learn about water hardness myself. I know a little from the board. But, I know other members know a whole lot more than me on this topic.

Chuck the ideal hardness is between 35 to 80ppm for breeding.
My water straight out of the tap in winter is 330ppm which is hard water.
You can get lower water with water softner or an RO unit.
When I run it throu my carbon block it drops below 100ppm in which I am still trying to figure out why this is.
If you go on any salt water forum you should be able to find some were people have had this discussion a few times.

Walter

According to Aquarium Pharmaceuticals (my test kits) it is parts per million, but you can convert it to German degrees by dividing it by 17.9.
And I am starting to doubt the necessity of supper soft water for success. My water here in Utah is pretty hard (we grow a lot of African cichlids) but I have had hatches in my show tanks (tap water). I use an RO mix in my breeding tanks. A pair laid in my 110 a couple of weeks ago and I decided to save the eggs (I wanted to see what the babies would look like from these two different colored fish). They had already been laid in hard water so I saw no need to throw them in RO at this point. I got a 95% hatch of good strong babies. I was amazed so I measured the hardness of the tank.
GH(general hardness)=450ppm
KH(Carbonate hardness)=250ppm
PH=8.0
I have just changed one of my pair that is spawning on a regular basis to tap water and they laid eggs in it. The eggs are developing with about the same rate of good eggs as they have had in the past with the RO.
I have not come to definite conclusions yet. I am just stating my observations.

Hey Chuck,
Here is the classification for water hardness:
Mario
                     
                       

Hardness (ppm CaCO3) Classification
< 15 ppm Very Soft
15 ppm - 50 ppm Soft
50 ppm - 100 ppm Medium hard
100 ppm - 200 ppm Hard
> 200 ppm Very hard

This topic dazzled me a little so Im sticking to the old style of doing things.

I can see why people test for all sorts of things, although, I don't believe you should need to unless you work in a science lab.

How hard is the water, when you get used to it you can feel it, thats my way, another is when washing your hands under the water with soap.

The quicker it takes your hand to foam the harder the water is.

Thanks Kathy, the link was a handy one.

One day I'll try using some new tech-stuff go-go-gagets, I love it

Regards Armandi

How I understand it. TDS (PPM) is important for eggs development. If the water is to hard, the egg shell encapsulates and dies. I have been told from a number of good sources that fry need minerals in the water for bone development and growth. I only put pairs I am trying to spawn in RO water. All the rest seem to do fine at my  180 ppm.

Here's a handy guide I found on the net, the scale is at the bottom:

   Total dissolved solids (TDS) refers to a measure of all inorganic solids dissolved in the water.  This means that it will measure ions that contribute to water hardness, tike calcium, but also those that do not, like sodium.  The TDS measurement is a better reflection of the total mineral content of the water rather than a water hardness measurement.  However, for estimation purposes, the water hardness can be roughly calculated by dividing the ppm (parts per million) measurement of the TDS by 10 giving a hardness value with an error of only 2-3 French degrees.  TDS measurements can also be derived from relative conductivity measurement.
     Conductivity is similar to TDS measurements.  Conductivity is a measure of the ability of a substance to conduct electric current.  Conductivity measurements offer a rapid and non-destructive way to measure ion content in the sample.  The conductivity measurement is made with an electronic sensor or meter in micro/milli-Siemens per centimeter or ppm.  Conductivity increases with increasing ion content, which means that in most cases it gives a good approximation of the TDS measurement using the conversion factor of 1 ppm = 2 uS/cm.  Conductivity is temperature sensitive and is typically standardized to 25°C.  While conductivity is a convenient way to get an approximation of the hardness of water it does have the drawback of combining all ions in the measurement, including those that do not contribute to the water’s hardness.  This hardness approximation gives an error similar to the TDS measurement of 2-3 French degrees of hardness.
     Can you measure water hardness with a conductivity sensor or TDS sensor?  Yes, however it depends on the accuracy that you want to have in your measurement.  In general the following table describes the water hardness as measured by a TDS, conductivity, or hardness measurement.

TDS(ppm)  Cond.(uS/cm)      °f        Hardness 

0-70              0-140           0-7          Very Soft 
70-150         140-300         7-15         Soft 
150-250       300-500          15-25        Slightly Hard 
250-320       500-640           25-32       Moderately Hard 
320-420       640-840            32-42           Hard 
Above 420     Above 840        Above 42     Very Hard 

I read this a couple times. So what does it say?  I was a business major.

Kathy posted this link a while back:

http://www.globalw.com/support/hardness.html

Bascially, if you use the chart on the bottom it tells you how the TDS reading relates to water hardness. 150 to 250 being slightly hard. The text is for the hardcore who want more.

Update if you read my comment earlier------- I am starting to doubt the necessity of supper soft water for success. My water here in Utah is pretty hard (we grow a lot of African cichlids) but I have had hatches in my show tanks (tap water). I use an RO mix in my breeding tanks. A pair laid in my 110 a couple of weeks ago and I decided to save the eggs (I wanted to see what the babies would look like from these two different colored fish). They had already been laid in hard water so I saw no need to throw them in RO at this point. I got a 95% hatch of good strong babies. I was amazed so I measured the hardness of the tank.
GH(general hardness)=450ppm
KH(Carbonate hardness)=250ppm
PH=8.0
I am getting very good results from my pairs (eggs hatching and babies doing great) in my hard water. My RO unit has not been on for weeks. What does this mean? Do we not need soft water? I don't seem to.

              Hard because of the ppm measure.


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